Fellow Conspiracy Theorists

[thedude]

From http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5jZHepUhX3cYLnSqZV2tm_byrun3AD8SV1B5O2

Feds Raid 'Liberty Dollar' HQ in Ind.

By RYAN LENZ – 2 days ago

EVANSVILLE, Ind. (AP) — Federal agents raided the headquarters of a group that produces illegal currency and puts it in circulation, seizing gold, silver and two tons of copper coins featuring Republican presidential candidate Ron Paul.

Agents also took records, computers and froze the bank accounts at the "Liberty Dollar" headquarters during the Thursday raid, Bernard von NotHaus, founder of the National Organization for the Repeal of the Federal Reserve Act & Internal Revenue Code, said in an interview.

The organization, which is critical of the Federal Reserve, has repeatedly clashed with the federal government, which contends that the gold, silver and copper coins it produces are illegal. NORFED claims its Liberty Dollars are inflation free and can restore stability to financial markets by allowing commerce based on a currency that does not fluctuate in value like the U.S. dollar.

"They're running scared right now and they had to do something," von NotHaus told The Associated Press Friday. "I'm volunteering to meet the agents and get arrested so we can thrash this out in court."

According to the company, NORFED has produced an estimated $20 million of its own paper currency in the past two decades, claiming its $1, $5 and $10 denominations were backed by silver stored in Coeur d'Alene, Idaho.

Federal agents also raided the group's storage facilities in Idaho, von NotHaus said.

Wendy Osborne, a spokeswoman for the FBI's Indianapolis office, declined to comment and referred all questions to the U.S. attorney's office for the Western District of North Carolina. Suellen Pierce, a spokeswoman for that office, also declined to comment.

In a federal seizure warrant given to the AP by von NotHaus, federal agents allege the money and other properties seized in the raid were linked to money laundering, mail fraud and wire fraud.

The raid comes eight months after von NotHaus filed a lawsuit in federal court in Evansville seeking a permanent injunction to stop the federal government from labeling the Liberty Dollar an illegal currency.

The U.S. Mint issued a warning this year that the Liberty Dollar violated the Constitution and warned consumers against using them unsuspectingly.

Paul's campaign said it had not authorized production of the Ron Paul dollars.

"We have no connection with that," said Jesse Benton, a campaign spokesman for Paul. "He was using Ron as a marketing technique. We didn't have anything to do with that or sanction it or give permission in any way. *edit* MAN"

Seriously effed up....

[Mikeimus_Prime]

It's not fucked up. It's quite predictable. Why would the government let anything that fucks with their currency slide? It's a really cool idea to just produce your own bureaucracy free money, but it's was made simply to get busted.

[Bill From Cleveland]

I think CBS is out to get the boys. :D

[Jermaine Justice]

But as far as I know the Liberty Dollar was out there for a while, why didn't they get it then? How, in a free country, are we not able to use whatever currency we want? Personally, I oppose how the Government just prints money and gets away with it.

Government fucks too much up for me to like being forced to support it.

[Bill From Cleveland]

The government is pretty much garbage. I can't really think of any good things they do. It's alway bad. Everything they do causes grief.
"wave the flag, forget what were doing to make your life suck."
Yeah, we need change.

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u4/rainbow_zen/REVOLUTION.jpg

[Tony's bitch]

I'll tell you this Country flat out sucks right now, but you could live in far worser countries.

[Bill From Cleveland]

Love the country, hate the boss's. :D
They already ran the company into the ground. Or outsourced it. Depends how you look at it.

[drtwoball]

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x13/limegreencupcakeyumm/ftgov.gif YOUR GOVERNMENT FUCKING HATES YOU.
http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i114/philyb66/131412136_l.gif
http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i174/tjflywheel/legalizeit.jpg

[smoke stack]

Why would the government let anything that fucks with their currency slide? It's a really cool idea to just produce your own bureaucracy free money

:qft: I'm sure this will come as no shock to anyone but this story was hardly mentioned at all on the local news.

[bmanOhio]

Where did you guys go to school? Or were you sleeping through your Government class.

From Section 8 of the United States Constitution - Powers of Congress

"To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;"

[winged-eel]

I am flat fucking ashamed of the way we've left the world for you kids. Please unfuck it. We failed.

[Bill From Cleveland]

Where did you guys go to school? Or were you sleeping through your Government class.

From Section 8 of the United States Constitution - Powers of Congress

"To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;"

Dude, I have this great piece of land in Florida for sale. It's a bargin. It only costs your 401k, and you have to pull some wool over your eyes. Interested?

[Jermaine Justice]

Wouldn't it still be wrong to just STEAL a company's precious metals? I don't know, I hated government class because by the time it came around, I knew most of it wasn't necessary. Now I wish I spoke up more and brought up stuff I may have disagreed with.

It just seems that the police state we live in makes it harder and harder to live how we want. Government fucked up the US Dollar, and we can't even fix it without them taking it away.

We'll try to unfuck it, and make it how it's supposed to be. United States is still an awesome country, and probably the best, for the reason that we can even talk like this is amazing.. but we have to preserve it somehow and we have to make sure we don't end up like all the other countries. The government is slipping. Almost everything we were even created on seems to be forgotten.

[bmanOhio]

Wool over my eyes..... Let see... Not only does the Fed's do not like it...

Vin Suprynowicz, one time Libertarian Party vice-presidential candidate has referred to the Liberty Dollar as a multi-level marketing system.

Carl Watner, who publishes The Voluntaryist, who believes in a hard currency has stated he does not agree with how the Liberty Dollar was implemented.

And... to top that all off... Liberty Services sells Liberty Dollars at a discount to their associates. If the Liberty Dollar value is fixed to silver, how can it be sold at a discount?

You all moan and groan about how the US has become a police state. You have no clue what a real police state is like. I have lived and worked in a police state... despite the fact that I was there at the request and approval of that country and the US government, I was followed by the secret police, I was arrested for taking a picture of a clean street, and I had to visibly visit the US Embassy at random intervals so someone in the local government would not be tempted to make me disappear.

So if you really want to do something to make our government better grow some balls, stop whining about funny money and write your congressman and protest the USA Patriot Act, support a true third party, vote for someone other than an incumbent, or run for office. Do something... or are you too afraid of the black helicopters....

The biggest Conspiracy in this country is the fact the majority of the citizens of the US don't vote... and the ones that do re-elect the same a** h*** who have gotten rich in Washington.

[Brooklyn Ace]

The biggest Conspiracy in this country is the fact the majority of the citizens of the US don't vote... and the ones that do re-elect the same a** h*** who have gotten rich in Washington.

I cut out most of it because this is IMHO the most important part of the whole post, what most people dont relize is that the RIGHT to vote is not just a right or privlige but your fuckin job. If you wanna bitch about the country then do something about it and FUCKING VOTE. now I know there are those that will disagree with me but Bman makes some very valid points the most important is if ya aint happy make a change fuck I'm thinkin about runnnin for office but with some of the shit Ive done as wel as my posts here and on other boards you fuckers would sink my campaign before I even announced it
Love ya all

[Jermaine Justice]

I see the point. I know I could do a LOT more, but I just see things and talk about 'em.

I'm not afraid of black helicopters, I don't go for conspiracy theories. Most of them are crazy!

And some (not me) apolitical types will refuse to vote because they find the act of it immoral. I think it's probably a good idea to vote if you care at all or have any knowledge in who your voting for, but I hope that someone who has no interest does not vote. And never vote for the less of two evils, vote for who you think is RIGHT.

I forgot what else I was going to say.. but yeah... I'm lazy, so I'll stop typing.

[Bill From Cleveland]

Where does your vote count? Look at the last 2 elections. We are so screwed. Why bother typing a bunch of shit? Walk outside. Look around.

[thedude]

bman,

A few things.

#1 http://www.libertydollar.org/legal/pdf/paper_legal.pdf
US mint says the money isn't "defamatory"

#2, I don't care what Vin has to say. Yes, I enjoy his readings but I don't agree with everything he says. If you are a proponent of freedom, free market yadda yadda yadda I am not sure how you can say that this is NOT fucked up. I have a few liberty dollars and I am aware they are sold over the spot price of silver. I was willing to accept that for various reasons. What were they? I don't have to disclose them, because it was MY money that I worked for, enabling me to spend it anyway I want to. THAT is the issue here. I don't need government to protect lil ol me.

(FYI I was willing to spend the money because it was an established, fairly well known currency).

As for selling their dollars at a "discount", if you read the affidavit on their site you can see their formula. In a nut shell, they take the spot price of silver, add minting and shipping fees, and offer that to their higher level sellers. Those higher guys then have a formula they use to sell to lower level "associates", who then in turn sell to anyone at the face value of the coin. You can read more at http://www.libertydollar.org/legal/pdf/libertyaffidavit.pdf
look around page 10 or 11.

And for voting, even if a large portion of the US voted for a 3rd party, I have a hard time believing the electoral college would let it fly. All the media being owned by one or two people wouldn't hurt either :D

[thedude]

Edit:

Also, what about the thousands of people who spent money on the Liberty Dollars (not the silver rounds) that were backed by the silver that was confiscated. That silver certificate, that BELONGS to them is now worthless...hardly seems right to meh.

[bmanOhio]

First... I want to say I am enjoying this... nothing like a well thought out debate!


#1 http://www.libertydollar.org/legal/pdf/paper_legal.pdf
US mint says the money isn't "defamatory"


I guess the Justice Department did not get the memo since they investigating Liberty Systems for money laundering, mail fraud, wire fraud, counterfeiting, and conspiracy.


#2, I don't care what Vin has to say. Yes, I enjoy his readings but I don't agree with everything he says. If you are a proponent of freedom, free market yadda yadda yadda I am not sure how you can say that this is NOT fucked up. I have a few liberty dollars and I am aware they are sold over the spot price of silver. I was willing to accept that for various reasons. What were they? I don't have to disclose them, because it was MY money that I worked for, enabling me to spend it anyway I want to. THAT is the issue here. I don't need government to protect lil ol me.


A free market depends on reliable means of trade for goods and services. This includes a instrument of trade that not only you and I recognize as valid. But can be recognized as valid between Nations. Countries who's currency is not valid outside their borderer's (e.g., Egypt's Pound) are plagued by black market money exchanges that favor tourist and rape over the locals trying buy imported goods.

During the Civil War the North's economy struggled with about 1600 currencies minted by the States, banks, and private citizens. The South also struggle with the same issue, which the North took advantage of by flooding the South with counterfeit currency. This is the primary reason why the Federal Government began enforcing its right under the Constitution to be the sole source of currency. The Secret Service was created at the same time to bring counterfeiting under control at the same time.

I don't need government to protect lil ol me.

Remember that the next time you pass through an airport being patrolled by National Guard unit... I am sure they would love to go home and let you protect yourself.


As for selling their dollars at a "discount", if you read the affidavit on their site you can see their formula. In a nut shell, they take the spot price of silver, add minting and shipping fees, and offer that to their higher level sellers. Those higher guys then have a formula they use to sell to lower level "associates", who then in turn sell to anyone at the face value of the coin. You can read more at http://www.libertydollar.org/legal/pdf/libertyaffidavit.pdf
look around page 10 or 11.


Sounds like Amway to me.....

And for voting, even if a large portion of the US voted for a 3rd party, I have a hard time believing the electoral college would let it fly.


Lets give it a try and see what happens...

All the media being owned by one or two people wouldn't hurt either :D

I think you mean this is a bad thing... I agree with you on this... why not run for Congress and help throw the bastards out that allow this to happen?

[bmanOhio]

Edit:

Also, what about the thousands of people who spent money on the Liberty Dollars (not the silver rounds) that were backed by the silver that was confiscated. That silver certificate, that BELONGS to them is now worthless...hardly seems right to meh.

I also agree with you on this point... they did get screwed by Liberity Systems.

[thedude]

First... I want to say I am enjoying this... nothing like a well thought out debate!

Likewise.



I guess the Justice Department did not get the memo since they investigating Liberty Systems for money laundering, mail fraud, wire fraud, counterfeiting, and conspiracy.


This is where I have to back off. I know this is not a perfect world, and while this guy is "Fighting for Liberty!" MAN, people are generally douche bags in it for their own good. He very well may have done all that, but I will still maintain that if everything is on the up and up, who is the government to say what I can own, or how I can own it.


A free market depends on reliable means of trade for goods and services. This includes a instrument of trade that not only you and I recognize as valid. But can be recognized as valid between Nations.

Kind of like the intrinsic value of silver or gold? How long has THAT been used for money.


During the Civil War the North's economy struggled with about 1600 currencies minted by the States, banks, and private citizens. The South also struggle with the same issue, which the North took advantage of by flooding the South with counterfeit currency. This is the primary reason why the Federal Government began enforcing its right under the Constitution to be the sole source of currency. The Secret Service was created at the same time to bring counterfeiting under control at the same time.

The liberty dollar was not being offered as a new currency. It was a non fiat alternative barter currency. You could offer it to someone, but they had every right to deny it, unlike legal tender.


Remember that the next time you pass through an airport being patrolled by National Guard unit... I am sure they would love to go home and let you protect yourself.


I'm not sure if you are disagreeing with me here, but OK. Let me carry my gun with me too and I'll be a happy camper.



I think you mean this is a bad thing... I agree with you on this... why not run for Congress and help throw the bastards out that allow this to happen?

I'm too young, and I already have a job. :) For some reason people are beginning to understand some of the efed up shit this government does. I think we may start seeing more and more "Ron Pauls" pop up in the local governments, which is where we really need them. I really hope half of those Ron Paul nuts realize that too.

I think we have to also examine the definition of a crime. If his books are legit, he had as much silver as he had dollars in circulation who was harmed?